Health Care reform…or disaster?

Well, all the republican/conservative talking heads are working themselves up into a frenzy of doom and gloom.  It’s the end of the american way. The damn socialists have taken over. bury the bibie and the guns, cause the frickin commies are gonna confiscate them next.

The democrats/liberals are in paroxyms of ecstacy. They have saved the american citizens and the economy in one fell swoop.


And the truth, I suspect, lies somewhere in the middle, as it usually does.

I suspect the businesses that will be hit hard are those medical technology companies…i predict hiring freezes or layoffs at big med tech companies, because that is where costs will be cut….fewer high tech purchases by hospitals

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65 Responses to Health Care reform…or disaster?

  1. buffalogal says:

    the passage of this particular bill guarantees future debt and deficts. It would have been much better to incrementally reform our health care system, like dealing with the insurance refusals of certain pre-conditions; putting a damper on lawsuits against medical drs and hospitals, and insuring only those who do NOT have insurance. This Big Tent approach is going to be a nightmare for our nation….costs beyond comprehension and red tape beyond anything we have so far experienced. Probably also a reduction in quality of care for the vast majority of those who need it. Also a departure of many drs who will simply not practice under this system…leading to an influx of inferior practioneers.

  2. Vertigo says:

    Almost all of that is media hype, BG. Have you actually READ any of this bill to make these huge assumptions, or did your neo con pundit du jour just tell you all this?

    Frankly, what has been passed IS the first step to incremental reform. They set the changes in the system so we can build from that point.

    There are 3 things I REALLY like in this reform (that is if anything acutally happens).

    No more pre existing conditions. I will no longer be a slave to my job simply for insurance.

    Medicare is making all PREVENTATIVE medicine free. (will Avandia be classified as Preventative, that remains to be seen)

    I will be able to keep my kids on my insurance until they are 26, if they can’t find any of their own.

    I cannot say if the rest is good or bad, I have not even started reading the 1,400 page document, but I DID give you all a link for it if you wanted it.

    I am just glad change has finally started

  3. Reader says:

    “Have you actually READ any of this bill to make these huge assumptions, or did your neo con pundit du jour just tell you all this?”

    Hey Vert – have you read the bill? I’m pretty sure that if the Dems had to have it pass so they could find out what was in it, that you haven’t gone through it yet.

    Nice job on repeating the Olberman talking points, anyway.

  4. remrafdn says:

    I don’t think it will cash flow. Too few people working, too many old farts still breathing. Some day in the not-too-distant future, there will be a cap on benefits. When one reaches that figure UPS or Fedex wii deliver a $2.50 Liberator pistol with a letter from a government agency suggesting you , like a disgraced WWII German general, “Do the right thing”. It will come with 2 cartridges so if your hand shakes and you miss the first time you can try again or perhaps you might want to off your spouse.

  5. bisonaudit says:

    Funny there remrafdn but you forget, old people vote.

    More likely they’d get treated that way by corporate insurance interests once they’ve exhaused their ability to pay.

    preach for

  6. Vertigo says:

    BINGO Reader, I had hoped you would catch that, I almost underlined it.

    How can BG make that assertion when it is abundantly clear NONE of us had actually read it. Its not designed to be a finished end product, but a framework new legislation can be built upon. A framework I might add, that will with HOPE allow individual states the right to make their own specific laws on health care. Thats a positive part of our present system.

  7. Right says:

    First has there ever been a entitlement that has been on budget or saved money? Second the three things Vertigo loves about this plan – who’s going to pay for them? Do you think that your insurance won’t go up? To get this thing to score well they had to collect taxes for 10 years and only payout 6 plus they double count the 1/2 billion of Medicare cuts. (which won’t happen) We needed some reforms but this is a joke.

  8. Vertigo says:

    Yer funny Right, please cite from the legislation any of this.

    Thats right, you haven’t read it yet, but STILL assume this is all going to happen. I wonder WHO told you??? Turn OFF THAT AM RADIO DIAL!!!

    Do I deny there will be costs, especially transitional costs? No I don’t, everything has its price tag. Many of the costs you fear though, are actually just shuffled book keeping ledgers, and instead of the Insurance company recieving the money, and paying the expenses, the government will do so instead.

    Either way, it effects me very little. I still get my money taken straight out of my paycheck, and my claims denied when I want it back. The Liberal Health Monster doesn’t scare me, I stopped being afraid of the boogie monster a LONG time ago.

    Or is it possible.. just remotely possible that because the Government has a customer (Taxpayer) obligation, my bills will be paid with less friction and denial than from an insurance industry who’s only responsability is to make a profit.

    Instead of voice mail to a third world person, I can write my congressman. If I have a valid bitch, it will get fixed.

    It is also possible, that with having an obligation to those being treated instead of who pays the check, our entire healthcare system will adjust to a new priority of payment and become more proactive and preventative in treatment; which ALWAYS saves money in the long run.

    I don’t know… could be me, but it makes a lot more sense than your babbling about how having your tax dollars taken is going to destroy the world and the liberal boogie man is HUNGRY!!!!

  9. Profile photo of billybones billybones says:

    It will be interesting to see how the legal challenges play out.
    also, why isn’t anyone challenging the legality of promising particular states increases in medicare funding?

  10. Right says:

    You’re in for a big surprise Vertigo. All Obama has done is enslave our children and grandchildren to a life of paying off Medicare- SS (which are BOTH BROKE) and this health bill. And your repeated defense of “please cite from the legislation” shows your inability of not understanding this bill and the consequence to future generations. Everyone thinks Medicare and SS are wonderful but very few understand how under funded they are and which generation is going to pick up the final tab. There both ponzi schemes and as anyone knows they all have bad endings.

  11. Vertigo says:

    “shows your inability of not understanding this bill” (Rights quote)

    Nuff said. I must be pretty smarterer than Right, considering what the double negative says….

  12. Right says:

    Can’t comment on the subject Vert? What’s the matter out of snappy come backs?

  13. bisonaudit says:

    I’m not going to pretend that SS and Medicare aren’t underfunded but they are not Ponzi schemes. Today’s workers are paying for today’s retirees but everyone knew that was the arrangement from day one. No one was deceived, therefore not a Ponzi scheme.

    Also, doing nothing, continues to equal an underfunded Medicare so lets not act like that problem just cropped up Sunday. It was $40 trillion on Saturday, now its $39.8 trillion.

    Plus, no more jackasses refusing to cover annual exams that were conducted 363 days apart.

    Mr junks

  14. bisonaudit says:

    I’m not a lawyer but I don’t see anything on the legal front that hasn’t been settled since Appomattox Court House. So, yes, if they’re not thrown out of court it could be very interesting

    de twerps

  15. andy g says:

    If we have the money to fund everyone else in the free world without compensation, then this is morally a no brainer. I find it reprehensible that we can wring our hands over poor in other nations, yet turn our back and a blind eye to our own.
    BuffGal, you as a retired teacher, have a decent deal…many others do not…I can always limp into a VA hospital and let the taxpayers do it…the other thing, is that we are not changing our insurance carriers, rather this law smacks suspiciously like the no-fault auto insurance gambit a few years back…insofar that all must be insured. Of course, credits will be issued for those who cannot buy it. Hopefully tort reform on medical malpractice is next…we are running short of critical care physicians in some fields as a result of relentless lawyers…this is a good start, and it is a work in process, but it was about 30 years too late. Look at all the jobs being outsourced now to avoid giving a full time position (with benefits) to an employee…now the next thing that needs fixing is the definition of an American Corporation and the tariffs placed on domestic firms that outsource their jobs to avoid taking care of their own economy.
    If business laws and immigration laws are not eneacted with the same speed, this is indeed a doomsday bill…if we tighten the border in all respects and start taking care of our own, then it is a good start.

  16. buffalogal says:

    I am watching and waiting to see how this all plays out. I cannot believe that most parts of this bill will be good for the citizens of the U.S. It will be interesting to see if any of the commenters who favor the bill will confess to having inferior medical treatment, long waits, refusals for prodcedures et al. It is going to happen—there will be be too many patients demanding care and not enough drs and other medical personnel to deal with it all. Just read up on what has happened in Canada , England and other Universal healthcare countries.

  17. Bryan K says:

    I have read up on what has happend in other socialized medicine countries, buffalogal, and I’ve come to the conclusion that our health care system is one of the worst in the western world.

  18. Profile photo of billybones billybones says:

    Buffalogal, in response to Socialized Medicine in other countries, very few actually have socialized medicine. That term is used proimarily as a way of drumming up fear…the old socialism/communism evil thing. The fact is, we are the only industrialized country that has not decided that it is in our interest to ensure that all citizens have health care coverage. The book The Healing of America: A Global Quest for Better, Cheaper, and Fairer Health Care by T.R. Reid offers an interesting analysis of other countries health care systems both from a historical perspective as well as how they work.

    the reality is, we suffer greatly from the inefficiency of having multiple overlapping confusing systems of coverage, and this new legislation will not change that. In most other countries, you go in for a proceedure, and you know what it will cost, and cost isn’t dependant upon which insurance you have. Germany has private insurance, but they are non-profits, and they are regulated by the government, and they actively compete for people’s business. The notion that a for profit system based on competition and profit is the most efficient way of doing things is ridiculous. One need only look at Medicare. The portion completely operated by the government has about 3-4 % administrative costs. The part that is in the hands of private companies is at 13%-20% administrative costs…yet we always hear how inefficient the federal government is…looks to be the other way to me. Please, after all the corporate shenanigens from enron to the banking fiasco, don’t tell me we can trust corporations to look out for anyone but their directors and ceos.

  19. matt a. says:

    Vertigo, “No more pre existing conditions. I will no longer be a slave to my job simply for insurance.” ~~ I hear this often from proponents of this bill. Since when are you a slave? Don’t you have the ability to find a different job with a different benefits package?

  20. Bryan L says:

    “I have read up on what has happend in other socialized medicine countries, buffalogal, and I’ve come to the conclusion that our health care system will soon be one of the worst in the western world.


  21. Vertigo says:

    I guess you don’t understand Matt, what pre existing conditions do. The insurance companies turn you down because you have a pre existing condition, or at a minimum refuse to treat that condition which is just as bad as being rejected.

    Insurance companies routinely reject diabetics for pre existing condition, I have to stay right where I am if I am to expect any kind of insurance coverage for it.

    The point is, is that it IS a “Different Benefits Package”. The legislation requires the package you refer to have it be illegal to ask what my medical record is BEFORE I am hired and cover all of my medical needs, no exceptions (I hope).

    I have 2 children Matt, and their care is more important than the job I maintain. I will NOT move into a job that is less secure than what I have now and the threat of pre existing conditions shakes the foundation of that security, especially if they require all employees to be on their insurance plans and I get rejected while still on probation.

    Obviously not your problem, is it Matt, but its a common one nonetheless.

  22. Right says:

    Billy – You must have missed when ND BCBS released it’s administrative costs. They only have 7% while paying out 93%. This is the reason why we needed the ability to purchase insurance across state lines. Why did the Dem’s refuse this? Also Bryan K. why did Newfoundland’s premier Danny Williams heart surgery in the USA? I’ve had some medical problems lately and I can get into see my primary care doctor within 1 or 2 days sometimes the same day. I don’t think anyone posting has a good idea how insurance works. What would happen if the auto insurance companies allowed all the DWI and bad drivers to recieve the same rates as a 100% good driver? Rates would go up for everyone right. Now I’m for covering pre existing conditions as most people can’t control what they come down with. But it’s going to raise premiums. The health insurance bill could have been so much better with some changes and could have had a ton of bipartisan support. All the numbers the Dem’s attached to this bill are phony and in the next few months that will be obvious to even the yellow dog dem’s.

  23. Profile photo of billybones billybones says:

    right…7% is still more inefficient than 3.5%.
    We know that ND BCBS is one of the most efficient in the nation.
    As far as the rest you have to say…perhaps if you researched what other industrialized nations do, you would realize that spending way more per capita and covering fewer people isn’t an effective way to insure. And before you start toeing the republican party line about socialized medicine…educate yourself, many of those countries do not have socialized medicine (which would mean the health care system is owned and operated by the government) but they do have requirements that everyone be covered.
    You hear all the “horror stories” about canada. Funny, if they really dislike their healthcare so much…why isn’t there a groundswell movement to change it? Because they believe that despite it’s flaws, it is better than other systems. They made a fundamental decision early on that health care should be equally available to all…meaning rich tycoon waits as long as homeless joe. It doesn’t quite work that way, rich dude can go to the us and pay out of pocket…but as i saidd, i could care less about all the “annecdotes” of my uncles, cousins inbred neice needed a lobotomy and the wait would have been 5 months in canada and they came here and got it in 1 month. Anyone can spout stories. Find me poll numbers from canada saying the majority of citizens want to change their system, or show me a mass movement in canada to try to change the system…it doesn’t exist.
    We are the only industrialized nation that doesn’t view adequate health care as a basic right.
    we lead in technology and outcomes related to technology, but based on our spending compared to theirs, we should be beating them in any and every comparison, but we don’t.
    And this bill doesn’t fix the basic problems of multiple, confusing systems and cost containment

  24. Vertigo says:

    “we should be beating them in any and every comparison, but we don’t.” (Billy’s quote)

    Thats because we allow the poor people to be neglected for the bottom line of the rich, and too many people fall through the cracks.

    You cannot pursue happiness unless you are healthy. Good health is a right every human should have, if at all possible.

  25. The Liberals says:

    The sad thing is that we have to pass legislation in order to get a “nation of Christians” to act like fucking Christians.

  26. Profile photo of billybones billybones says:

    that you, oh angry rotarian?

  27. Bryan K says:

    Yes…one extremely rich Canadian who can afford a second home in Florida comes to America to have a procedure done that most Americans can’t afford, and that is somehow supposed to refute all of the statistics that say that the United States has an inferior health care system.

  28. andy g says:

    ..Good health care is not a right…access to health care is a right, you cannot force good health on people will not live a healthy lifestyle…ban fucking twinkies and soda pop! Make fat folks diet and live responsibly, no smoking, and while we are at it we should legistlate morality….
    There is a fine line Vert….we are all going to pay for it, I am now…my insurance costs are what they are to support those who do not pay and use the system, one way or another…hospitals write off their “charitable” activities on the backs of those who pay now, so what is the deal…it just becomes transparent…
    on the pre-existing conditions…no one should be prisoner because of health issues, I agree. Society, who has to now pay the frieght, has a right to expect healthy behavior now too….there will ultimately be a liberty price to pay for participation. No DOubt.

  29. Insurance Exec says:

    “Insurance companies routinely reject drunk drivers for pre existing accidents, I have to stay right where I am if I am to expect any kind of insurance coverage for it.”

    As it turns out, high risks end up having to find higher cost insurance.

  30. Liberal says:

    Anecdotal evidence surely is worth the trillion dollar takeover of healthcare

  31. andy g says:

    You cannot force a firm to operate at a loss, whether it be a hospital, insurance company, or a construction company doing government work.
    There will have to be peripheral adjustments, or the government will just pick up the tab. There will be a control of health care doled out to the needy, they will not get the same care taht the rich can get, the government cannot force or compel a doctor to assume risk on cases, without absorbing the risk onto itself…maybe that is the answer…if you go on the dole, you lose your right to sue for malpractice. Some people cannot be cured, but they and their families cannot be c onvinced of same.
    It goes back to tort reform, immigration reform, a little tax reform, how credits will be handled for those who have no money but will now be compelled to purchase insurance for health (and maybe even the car they do not have either….) reform is a necessary component, but it has to be far reaching into all of the tributaries of the medical system.

  32. Vertigo says:

    “You cannot force a firm to operate at a loss, whether it be a hospital, insurance company, or a construction company doing government work.” (Andy’s Quote)

    Thats right Andy, and thats why.. in spite of all their ignorant babble and empty rhetoric bringing up statistics that have not yet happened, the conservatives don’t have a clue about the importance of the “Public Option”.

    Remember the definition of Insanity… doing the same things the same way and expecting different results.

    In order for us to have a competitive market, we need to put in a safety net in case of failure, so smaller, more risky ventures can provide the competition for the fat cat established companies who have bottomless pockets.

    We pulled the Banking system out of this back in the depression, and now we have to do the same with the Health Care system. With the Banking System, we mandated the FDIC which guarantee’s the banks solvency no matter what. Banks can no longer be closed unless the owners want to discard them while solvent. The FDIC simply takes it over, and hands it to another solvent firm; patrons are cared for and often don’t even know it happened.

    We need, at a bare minimum this level of protection for the medical industry also; this is an important part of reform. No Hospital should be allowed to bankrupt or cut level of care to the patients.

    To put it into law as an unfunded mandate, which is always a recipe for failure, is wrong. It needs to be government funded and this means socialization.

    The question REALLY should be what level of control do we want to have the government hold.

    By definition, when we enact laws, we start that basic level of control, and the water is under the bridge the minute we start reform legislation, its only a matter of degree, not “if”.

    This reform can vary from completely running all health care facets down to simply providing insurance to protect hospitals from failure as in the FDIC for banks. We need to provide that safety net, and THEN we can make meaningful steps toward other reforms such as Torte’ reform, level of required care for uninsured people and true life/ death decision making for those who are at end of life for just a couple of examples.

    We cannot fix those problems until the Health Care Industry is stable.

  33. Doctor says:

    Vert – what you’re saying that the “reform” bill is the first step in a complete takeover?

  34. Vertigo says:

    You can do a lot worse than Canada or Englands system, I assure you. Ask someone in Haiti right now.

    but no, thats not what I said. You are using ambiguous absolutist rhetoric which obviously works on you and the rest of the AM Neo Con audience, but the world doesn’t actually work that way.

    Please Dr. define what you mean by “Complete Takover”…

    Are you saying I am going to fly in alien Dr’s to take your job away? Perhaps thats a good idea, because when they get the Industry stabalized, we really need to look closely at the staffing and whats appropriate charges for specific treatment and supplies.

  35. Nurse says:

    Nice work on regurgitating the Olberman talking points, Vert. I didn’t realize that anyone actually watched his show.

  36. Vertigo says:

    Never watched him, I try to stay away from pundits, they cause indigestion….He must be good though; if he says what I do. I obviously must be on the right track.

  37. Doctor says:

    Nice work disregarding any valid points with your appeal to popularity generalization. I didn’t realize you were this dumb. I need a new nurse.

  38. Nurse says:

    Valid points? AHAHAHAHA! Talking points, you mean.

  39. Doctor says:

    Why should anybody listen to a nurse over a Doctor? Your argument can be dismissed outright.

  40. ... says:

    Vert’s a doctor?

  41. The Ultimate Decider-Government Type Dude says:

    Sorry, you are both wrong. I make the calls here retards. Now make yourselves useful and go fill potholes. Be sure to do it in a government approved manner though.

  42. andy g says:

    Vert: You have to keep what works for many and make sure there is a viable option for those who need it. YOu cannot make everyone equal in this deal, what you need to do is establish a baseline for minimum coverage and health care needs. There are many, frankly, that anything more than that would just be a waste of money. If they refuse to care for themselves then there should be a compassionate indifference to them and concentrate the care dollars where it will do the most good and where it is appreciated.
    As anti centrral government as I am, if you go on the dole…then the taxpayer has a right to demand behavior changes in the recipients…no body rides for free. Quit smoking, lose weight, and live have to take a blood and piss test on a regular basis (they are cheap as opposed to the alternative)to stay on the program…if you don’t like it, go to Canada. Now…on that order, I can live with my tax dollars covering their ass…those are the rules for me with my company insurance, the indigent and working poor should not have it better than me when I am asked to support it.

  43. The Educated Doctors entrusted by Government Type Dudes says:

    Actually, we’re all for it. The fact that you think someone of our education, achievement and stature isn’t as smart as you shows that you are clearly having paranoid delusions.

    We can treat that.

  44. Insurance Execs says:

    Don’t get us wrong – we’re for it too, and we’ll keep on kicking money to the Democratic Party as we’ve always done. That “for the little guy” gimmick is hilarious.

  45. Insurance Execs says:

    But we NEED that money to provide for the “greatest healthcare system in the world.”

    Amirite conservatives?

  46. Insurance Execs says:

    We were scared that the conservatives would actually let the free market work instead of giving us free money. That’s why we work for (and always have) the Democratic party.

  47. Big Pharma says:

    Heck – why do you think we were on board since the beginning. We want to get in on the Liberal gravy train too.

  48. Hoser Farma says:

    Just as long as the cheap Canadian source of Viagra stays available…eh.

  49. DNC says:

    We’ve made sure that Viagra will be given to child molestors and sex offenders, don’t you worry about that.

  50. Aldo Nova says:

    “Heck – why do you think we were on board since the beginning. We want to get in on the Liberal gravy train too. ”

    Life is just a fantasy, can you live this fantasy life!

  51. Conservative reader says:

    “Just as long as the cheap Canadian source of Viagra stays available…eh.”

    That liberal horseshit should be illegal, just like unions. How can we have a free market that benefits only the wealthly if all these old people are getting their drugs cheaper from Canada?

    And you know who wanted to make it even EASIER? That’s right, that socialist Byron Dorgan.

    Now if you’ll excuse me, I have to call Dell tech support back and speak with Navdeep in Bangalore.

  52. Navdeep says:

    Pleese daunt breeng mee eento deese deescusion sar. Would jew lyke to speeeek to mai supervisor?

  53. Grootch reader says:

    Hi Grootch!

  54. Hey Lyndon says:

    SS will be in the red this year, Medicare not far behind. All pyramid schemes must come to an end sooner or later. At least Obama knows that the Health care scheme won’t pay for itself – that’s why he’s got 6 years of benefits being paid with 10 years of taxes. When those 6 years are up, it’ll be in the same (if not worse) shape than FDR and LBJ’s schemes.

  55. Zombie Reagan says:

    Pyramid schemes? You mean like deficit spending and artificially inflated markets?

  56. Baby Boomer says:

    Wait – I’m a “pyramid scheme?” Well that’s weird; I don’t feel schemish…

  57. Gen X'er says:

    Just wait until we raise the retirement rate to 75. You’re the ones who’ve wrecked our country, Boomers.

  58. boomer sooner says:

    Shut up x’er and pay up, just like I had to pay up for all the folks for get it, but didn’t contribute. It did not start fully funded so why should you be any different than anyone else?
    This touchy/feely yet coldblooded disenfranchised bunch of me firsters..oh wait, they are our kids…
    never mind.
    Same shit, different generation.

  59. Tea Party says:

    “touchy/feely yet coldblooded disenfranchised bunch of me firsters”

    You forgot racist

  60. boomer sooner says:

    SOme of them, yes. Some of them are just pragmatic. The truth sucks sometimes. It is always easier to blame the “man”.

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